Welcome to our third podcast interview!
Jennifer Petriglieri is an associate professor of organisational behaviour at INSEAD in France, and the author of Couples That Work: How dual-career couples can thrive in love and work. She spent years studying the lives of dual career couples, interviewing hundreds of them to identify typical patterns and traps to avoid. I have read and reread her book, found it relatable and helpful, and am so pleased that I had the opportunity to ask her more questions about her research. (In fact, I already recommended it to you here.)
In this conversation, we talk about:
how to be intentional about who we want to be, and not just what we want to do;
the balance of power and control in a couple;
the three big life/work transitions that dual-career couples go through;
and how to navigate two midlife crises at the same time.
You can listen directly in your browser (click the play button above☝🏾) or use an external app. I’ve included an excerpt of our discussion below as a written Q&A (edited for brevity and clarity), and a complete transcript of the interview here.
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With a *big* merci to sound engineer and composer Hugo Rabes 💫🎧
If I had to summarise your book, Couples That Work, in two words, I’d say it's about being intentional.
Absolutely, yes. Which is not the same as planning everything, right? But certainly being intentional about choices.
What you describe really well in the book is how often we fall into patterns—say, one primary career / one primary caregiver. We don’t necessarily realize we’re doing it, or we’re doing it for the wrong reasons. How can couples connect to their [respective] intrinsic motivation when they are two separate people who want different things in their careers?
The really important thing is to get out of the thinking of what we want, and into the thinking of: What sort of person do I want to be? And what sort of couple do we want to be? And what sort of kids do we want to raise? what kind of community might support that? What is a good life for us? Is it a life in the city, in the suburbs, in the country? Is it a life super connected to our extended family or more of a nuclear family life? I think when we start answering these questions, a lot of the [practical] questions around the things slot into place.
So you’re saying it’s about identity rather than about action?
It’s really about thinking about the big picture, which is identity. I always think of a five-year time horizon: five years is enough time that, realistically, you could make a significant transition, but it’s not so far that you can’t project yourself into the future. If I project myself five years forward, what is going to make for a good life for me or for us? And from there we can then build up into the decisions themselves.
You write in the book: “Without forethought, identity implications only become apparent a few years after you have made your choices. Many people I interviewed for this book described waking up one morning with a sudden realization that they were living a life that they had never anticipated, and had become a person that they didn’t want to be, that their decisions had made them instead of them making decisions.” Is this something fairly universal? [We imagine that many other people] are really driven, and they have a clear plan.
I think there’s a mistake to equate [that apparent drive] with how planful we are in life. Because the question is, whose plan is it? Very often, it’s not ours. Let’s take the classic kind of late 20-year-olds who seem very driven and know what they want. You wind back to, Where did you get these ideas from? Well, when I was graduating, the trendy thing was to go into tech, so I went into tech. And my parents got married [in their] late 20s, so I’m definitely getting married [in my] late 20s. So they look very planful, very directional, but it’s not their direction. I don’t think having a plan saves you. I think it’s about, Are you the author of your plan? Regardless of how tight that plan is, or how kind of loose and free it is, is it your plan? Or is it someone else’s plan?
You mention in the book that dual-career couples can excel at making colour-coded calendars and sorting out the logistics, but don’t necessarily think about the balance of power and control within the couple, which is where resentment can build up.
When I think of fairness, I think: do we both have the same share of voice? Do I have the power to say: This is what I need, this is what I want? And I know I’m not always going to get it. But at least I’m going to feel that you’re respecting that and we are trying to work in that direction. I always say, if you’re arguing about who’s buying the milk, it’s never about the milk. It’s never about the division of time. It’s about, Well hang on a minute, how come your time is more valued than my time? Or how come you get to choose?
You would assume that 50/50 couples are the happiest, right? What is the case is the couples who are the most content are couples who are very clear about the rules of the game, very clear about the division of labour, or whose career leads or follows right now—and that can change over time.
What’s your advice on how to have those conversations about joint life decisions?
I would say I think the first thing is, don't go nuclear. Don't think, okay, we need to sit down tonight! And we need to agree on everything and talk about everything! I think it's about a series of conversations as opposed to a conversation, weaving meaningful conversations into the fabric of your relationship. If you've never had these conversations, it's about starting small. Can I understand what you want, what a good life looks like for you? And can I really appreciate that? We often get into the trap of assuming what our partner wants. The bottom line is, Do I understand what makes you tick, and where you want to go? And if I understand that, a lot of things fall into place.
To find out more about the three big life/work transitions that dual-career couples go through during their lifetime, and how to navigate two midlife crises at the same time, listen to the 20-minute podcast (click the play button at the top of the page)☝️⏯️ or read the whole transcript here.
#93: How to thrive as a dual-career couple